Opinion: WCL Div 2….
The WCL Div 2 is about to begin in a couple of days time. I have been a little out of touch with associate cricket happennings, but WCL Div 2 is a tournament that I am looking forward to for a lot of reasons.
Recently, UAE, Namibia and Uganda have all beaten Bermuda in some form of cricket. All three feature in this tournamanet. Only Namibia and UAE have played each other recently, with Namibia thrashing UAE at home. UAE may return the favor, but this tells you of their relative strength on Namibian soil, where the WCL is going to be played.
Uganda beat Argentina in WCL Div 3 to get to this point. So far, the news is that Argentina team has been practising very hard for about 4 months now and is in better shape than they were in Div 3.
The relative strenghs of Denmark vis a viz the others is an unknown, and this tournament should provide us better insight into how the teams stack up.
Against Bermuda, UAE fielded a team which had some born and bred UAE players, and young guys coming through the age level teams. This is quite a good omen for UAE. But still their lynchpins are Arshad and Saqib Ali, and Silva, all expats, in fact, cricket related expats. Khurram Khan was missing from the UAE team against Bermuda, I dont know if he made it to the WCL Div 2.
The most predictable standing looks to be the following:
Namibia
Denmark
UAE
Uganda
Oman
Argentina
But this is coming from someone who thought that Argentina were just making up the numbers in WCL Div 3. The spots are based purely on reputation, not on any real evidence, except for maybe Namibia. Hence anything can happen, and that is what is making the WCL Div 2 something to really look forward to.
mopase
Nasir M. Khan
Nishadh Rego
Nasir M. Khan\'s Cricket blog 
Further down the ranks, the East Asia Pacific play-offs for a Div 5 spot begin in Auckland end of November. Online info is scarce, but Cook Islands apparently have two quality bowlers that will make them favourite. Japan could pull in 2nd.
Top 2 progress to Div 5, where life will be tough: Nepal, Afghan, Sing’ etc!!
Both Uganda and Namibia have had a few injuries, which may even up the field a bit. Both have shown very good recent form, however that is true for all of the teams, perhaps with the exception of UAE against anyone but Bermuda.
Although Namibia will be my tip to win, the real challenge is to be in the top 4 and progress to the WC Qualifier. I’d say this one is too close to call..
I think it could be a very interesting tournament, however i will be hugely shocked if Namibia, on home soil, and with recent first class activity in South Africa don’t dominate. The injuries they have are only to fringe players with the exception of Louis Burger who is their captain. The Ugandans are missing Charles Waiswa for some reason, who has been very effective in the 20/20s against better sides so he will be missed.
Thats interesting news of Argentina, who i think could be a unknown quantity. I think with the xception of Namibia the rest will be pretty even.
I agree with the likelihood that Namibia will dominate at home.
However, even minus some players, I think Uganda will upset both UAE and Denmark.
It should be a cracker of a tournament.
http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/wcl/content/squad?object=314541
Here’s a list of all the squads.
Araitnwe is Uganda’s captain? At age 20?? How come they dont make Kamyuka as the captain?
The disappointing thing that I see in the squads about Oman is that they dont have the Arab players they had in 20 20…. perhaps their policy is to play the arabs only in the non consequential games, like a dead game in the ACC 20 20….. I am not sure if Khaleed Moosa is an Arab Omani or not…. he is born in Muscat, so at least he is born and bred if not indegenous……. Oman is one of the few Gulf countries which actually have some Omani teams in the player base as well, so I am surprised that they are Hong Kong part II for this tournament…..
But I think that if a country is losing to expat based teams like Oman, UAE (though they are not moving to born and bred team), Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Hong Kong etc, then you have some way to go…… so really, a team needs to beat Oman and UAE in this tournament to make some serious case for themselves……
isnt there live coverage of this tournament anywhere? not even on CricketEurope?
Actually there is some live ocverage…… at the ICC website here: http://icc-cricket.yahoo.com/wcl/homepage.html
I can see live scorecard for Denmark v Namibia…..
well, there is a live scorecard but i think the person updating it has gone to sleep for the day…… its not updating, and there is a scorecard only available for 1 game…..
how nice….
Den 19/2 in 10.0 overs vs Namibia
Klokker still there, but it looks like Namibia is well and truly on top at the momment.
Den 34/5 in 16.0 overs v Namibia
They need to start covering the other games now. Unless there are some daemons in the pitch, Namibia looks like they have this one wrapped in the bag.
Den 55/7 in 25 overs v Namibia
Den 77 all out against Namibia, Uganda 28/1 in 8 overs against UAE, Oman 58/1 in 9 overs against Arg and interestingly H.Desai got out after getting 51 of those 58 runs…Btw, why is there play-offs for the final spots when the tournament is being held in a league format?
where are you getting the scores for the other matches from?
Namibia just beat Den by 8 wkts…..
Oman 269/8 in 50.0 overs vs Argentina….. in all the mayhem, Esteban McDermott had figures of 10-2-27-2…..
Uganda 194 in 49.4 overs v UAE
UAE 36/1 in ?? overs
Oman 269/8 in 50 overs v Arg
Arg 65/1 in 20 overs
UAE beat Uganda by 7 wkts and 10 overs to spare…… bad show by Uganda….
Argentina lost to Oman by only 18 runs. That is either an exceptional effort by Argentina, or Oman is really weaker than the rest…. we will find more on the second day of the games…..
well i was rating uganda high but they really turn up so poor seems to me only one fast bolwer with which they were playing they were good in this department last time but seems to have lost charles waisawa, OCHAN and even there was no isnaeez, so poor selection by management they need to work out on thier selection they are fat betetr side what they showed, should need to have more bowlers thast there major plus.
Ochan was never going to be selected, as he was one of the two now living in Adelaide, after disappearing from the Div 3 tournament in Darwin. With all of the injuries to the team, Uganda were never going to threaten UAE or Namibia, and look to be struggling against Oman as well. It will be tough for them to make the top 4 with the start that they are having! I hope I’m wrong…
Uganda is in good position right now….. made 251/9, and have Oman down to 52/4 in 13.4 overs.
There is an Oman player lower in the order by the name of Farhan Khan. He is quite dangerous too, so Uganda will have to keep it up all the way till the end if they are to win the game…..
Oman has beaten Uganda by 3 wkts with 6 balls to spare.
As I mentioned, Farhan khan was a dangerous player. 40 off 27 balls with 3 sixes, and a match winning partnership towards the end of the innings.
With this, Oman should qualify for ICC Trophy 2009. They have 2 victories from 2 games, and unless something weird starts happenning, like Argentina and Uganda beating the big boys a couple of times, it looks like it is going to be a straightforward qualification from here on.
well they played only 2 quicker bolwers dammit they what selection was that there minds r poor like thier development thats really shit they are out now, how can u play 2 quickish bowlers against ASIAN TEAM and all part time spinners they are shit they are going out due to poor team selection.where was ISANEEZ n charles wasiwa.
Its really shit all is over i am not going to follow this tournament anymore 2 defeats for uganda, its all over shit to cricket ……………….
It’s now starting to become a bit clearer below the top tier….I think the developing countries now have a template to gauge their improvement over time…Countries like Arg, Nep, Afg, Ugan, PNG should first look to defeat Bermuda, then Oman, then UAE and then Canada to be able to break into the top 16….At the moment, it looks like Namibia is the only country that is definitely worthy of being in the top 16…
On a different note, Zim have managed to register a good 10-wicket victory against SA Composite XI in the first 4-day game…I think they would do well to play more such games against Ban and then may be convince the SA franchises that they’re good enough to be the 7th team…
The biggest surprise in my mind has been Denmark’s poor showing, although they seem to be getting more comfortable with the conditions. They’ve played to two toughest so far, so should have a better run at it now. The top 4 is still too close to call, with the exception of UAE and Namibia. On paper, Uganda should be able to beat Argentina, and possibly Denmark. I wouldn’t bet on it, though. Argentina might be able to upset both, and Oman are always a surprise package.
Uganda was actually in the game till the last 2-3 overs…..
But in order to be taken seriously, I think teams have to beat Oman and UAE at a minimum….. and convincingly….
Didnt Afghanistan and Nepal do better than Oman in the ACC Trophy?
Argentina played a strange match. I think they stopped atempting a win once they were 6 down and tried to just bat out the overs……
“But in order to be taken seriously, I think teams have to beat Oman and UAE at a minimum….. and convincingly….”
Whats are you trying to get at there Nasir?
Oman came 11th in the last ACC Trophy, which clearly indicates the immense strength and potential of the Asian Region, something I have been trying to point out for awhile.
Rego….. does it actually point to that? Or were Oman under strength/ ill prepared in that tournament?
Interestingly, so far Oman has played it’s 2 easiest games, while Denmark has played the 2 toughest….. There seems to be not much between Argentina, Uganda and Oman, but Oman has pulled off both the games against these opponents in their favor. UAE beat both Uganda and Denmark in pretty much the same fashion, so maybe Denmark is also of the same standard as Arg, Uga and Oman.
Uganda will have to cause an upset now to shake the cart a little, probably by beating Namibia, something that they have done before, even in Intercontinental cup game. Somehow I dont think that Oman or Argentina have it in them to upset UAE. Uga and Den did, but they could not pull it off.
Tomorrow’s game against Denmark looks to be critical for the Ugandans. I can’t see them beating Namibia so I think they are going to have to beat the Danes and the Argentinians to have any chance. A pity they don’t seem to have their strongest squad out for this tournament for various reasons:
Ochan/Okello – in Australia (and banned for “life” anyway)
Waiswa/Mukasa – disciplinary (?) issues
Kwebiha – couldn’t get time off work (!?)
and as you pointed out, a curious choice of captain for a side containing people like Olwenyi and the musician Kamyuka
Does Uganda actually have the national contracts? Or was that a “like to have” which never materialized?
I know Ochan and Okello are banned for life, but are they still in Australia? Has their visa still not expired 🙂
Rego…. your question about what I am trying to get at…. you really want me to get into that all over again :)… lets just say, for the sake of simplicity and not repeating ourselves, that the “expat” players from UAE and Oman were not really A team level in India, Pakistan or Sri …. they were in most cases, at best, domestic level players….. so associates have to at least beat them to show that their standard is getting higher……
UAE is still winning games based on exploits of Arshad Ali, Saqib Ali, Silva and Khurram Khan……. not on thier born and bred players…..
I understand that Ochan and Okello are in Adelaide playing for a club called West Torrens. Apparently they have had their visas extended pending consideration of their application for “refugee” status. There was some talk that the Ugandan authorities had asked for their deportation, but apparently this has not been confirmed by the Australian authorities
The UAE, at least seem to be intergrating some local players into the squads in the recent games, and maybe qualifying for another World Cup would help the game in the country even more.
I am very disappointed with Uganda who are seriously missing Charles Waiswa and Patrick Ochan. Hopefully they can still scrape through in 4th place
Yes, once again Uganda have gone into a major tournament without their best side.
As Roland points out, apart from the banned players Patrick Ochan and Jimmy Okello, both Charles Waiswa and Roger Mukasa were not included in the squad for disciplinary reasons according to an Ugandan newspaper report while former captain Junior Kwebiha was unable to secure time off from work. Throw in Hamza Saleh who was not selected for reasons that have yet to be revealed and it adds up to a major chunk of talent not in action.
I’m not about to appoint blame on the selectors, administrators or players for this situation. I am not privy to the political dynamics or the incidents that have seen Uganda field below full strength teams on a regular basis in 2006 and 2007.
However, no associate cricketing nation, particularly one as young as Uganda, can afford to go into important tournaments with anything less than their best line up.
For the sake of the fans, the stake holders and those that have worked so hard in the Ugandan junior development process for the last 10 years, the players, selectors, coaches and administrators must make every attempt to negotiate a compromise so that Uganda can begin to put their best team on the field in future tournaments.
Argentina, on the other hand, manage to get the most out of their small but steadily growing cricket infrastructure. It was pleasing to note that Pablo Ryan (24), Agustin Casime (20), Esteban Nino (21), Hernan Williams (21) and Pedro Bruno (19) made the squad having come through the Argentine junior development system. All five players are born and bred Argentines. In fact, Gary Savage is the only player in the squad not of Argentine descent and it must be noted that he has been resident in the country for more than seven years. Don’t let the Anglo-Argentine surnames mislead you. Over 100,000 citizens of Argentina have Anglo roots going back more than 100 years when a large number settled in the country to farm, build railways and set up business interests. Suburban names in Buenos Aires such as Morris, Munro, Almarente Brown, Glew, Hurlingham, Banfield, Linch, Open Door and City Bell feature as well as thousands of Anglo-Argentine street names and avenues.
Cricket now has a presence in Buenos Aires barrios such as Quilmes, Tortuguitas, Belgrano, Lomas de Zamora, Hurlingham, Longchamps, Virreyes and Burcazo either via the schools program or the clubs themselves and cricket is also re-emerging in Rosario which is about 300km to the North and subsequently the game is spreading to those with Spanish and Italian heritage. I look forward to the continued development of cricket in this country.
Check out this video of national captain Esteban MacDermott on an Argentine television program. It shows that the Anglo-Argentines are every bit the classic Castellano speaking Porteno.
UAE are still winning games because of their Pakistani first class players, but the fact that they have included 5 or 6 youngsters is a development. Their U-15 team, currently playing in Nepal, has been banned for not having at least 2 UAE passport holders.
Oman definitely had the same players in that tournament that they do now, but I don’t know how well prepared they actually were. However, the fact that with these same players, they struggled even against teams like the Maldives, says something about the region
“Their U-15 team, currently playing in Nepal, has been banned for not having at least 2 UAE passport holders.”
what?? :)….. well thats development for you 🙂
but on a serious note….. UAE has been trying to field born and bred players….. they played a few against the Bermuda team too……. so tahts at least a break from tradition…….
UAE have put the Argentinians to the sword, 412-4 off 50 overs, including a 9-ball innings of 41 from Saqib Ali!
Not just that, but Oman and Namibia seem to be going down to the wire……
Uganda starting slowly against Denmark, who I thought would not post more than 200, but ended up with 234…..
You are ahead of me Nasir, what site are you getting info from?
cricketnamibia.com has some pdfs with the latest scores….
It looks like Oman may be about to take down Namibia; they need only 34 to win with 5 wkts in hand off 11 overs. Denmark seem to have found their touch, and are about to win the crucial game against Uganda; I dont see Uganda being able to make 80 runs in 9 overs with only 2 wkts in hand.
Argentina are about to complete a miserable day. They are 91/7 chasing 412 against UAE.
From the results half way through the tournament, I would have to agree with Rego that the asian region is just too strong, and unpredictable. Really, Namibia should not have had any challengers in this tournament, so its confusing that Oman is about to take them down today.
It certainly shows the depth of the Asian region, not sure if I would say that equates to strength. It is Oman’s unpredictability that I find fascinating though. Having squeezed past Argentina and Uganda, I wouldn’t have given them any chance against the big bad Burger boys at in their own backyard, but they put them away in similar fashion.
Uganda having gone down against Denmark have little hope now(I hope Farhan isn’t following or he will go ballistic again), and with the Argentines losing by over 300, it is back to whence you came for those two by the looks of it
All in all, looking like only the Asian teams will come away from this tournament smiling, maybe all that money that people are so incensed about is starting to produce some results 🙂
Seriously though, it is disappointing to see the Ugandans performance hampered by things which appear to be related in some way to a deficiency in funding. It would be a shame if their development were to be stunted by lack of financial resources
Uganda got pretty close again…. lost by 21 runs…. and Namibia too pulled it back and lost bby only 2 wkts (never mind that they were supposed to thrash Oman)
I was bit disturbed to see Oman going all the way to ACC Twenty20 final and then tieing with Afghanistan. It feels better to see they are actually a worthy team.
One thing about that Oman scorecard against Namibia that caught my attention was the score when the first wicket was lost.
If the scorers have it right HP Desai was dismissed first with the score at 84. He made 82 of those runs while his opening partner made 1. Amazing!
Speaking of curious things on the scorecards, I noticed that one of the Ugandan openers was given out obstructing the field. One of the umpires for that game was a gentleman called Jeff Luck. I played in a game for Nigeria against Botswana where Jeff gave one of the Botswana batsmen out obstructing the field (entirely correctly I might add). I wonder how many umpires get to see (or maybe even give) two such decisions in their career
Big finish brewing in the Namibia/UAE game. You would have thought that 358 would be enough runs for Namibia but UAE have brought it down to a run-a-ball from the last 20 with 7 wickets in hand. The G-Man will be pretty sick if he finishes on the losing side again after scoring another big hundred
I am not sure the UAE and Oman doing well hear equates to the strength of the Asia region, unless you’re refering to the relative strength of Pakistan, India and Sri Lanka cricket. I think its a joke that in the Asia under 15 tournament teams are only required to have two passport holders playing. Surely the point of cricket is to represent your country, but some of these players are not playing for their country are they?
On the subject of the WCL2, i just hope Namibia and Uganda make it through and can field a full strength side next time.
Great win by UAE giving Uganda a lifeline. All Uganda have to do is thrash Namibia convincingly (which looks impossible) and hope Denmark loose to Argentina (little chance)
Big win today for UAE – chasing down 358 with more than 4 overs to spare takes some doing no matter who you are playing against. The Namibians have some thinking to do after the last couple of days
Edwin,
I think it is not quite as bleak as you make out. I believe that all Uganda need to do is win (I know that is an enormous task in itself), but by my reckoning if they do that Denmark would have to beat Argentina by an avalanche to go past Uganda on Net Run Rate. Having said that, I won’t be putting any money on Uganda making it. As I said beforehand, Denmark was the must-win game for the Ugandans, UAE and Oman have shown against Namibia that they have some firepower
What have the Asian teams been eating for breakfast? Their performances have really thrown open the question of who the strongest Associates are, and in particular which Asian teams that are in World League 5 or lower would be competitive at this level.
If the World Cup Qualifier were held now here’s my entirely subjective assessment of who deserves to be there and what position they might finish up in. If you’d asked me this time last week I might have given you a very different answer.
1. Kenya
2. Ireland
3. Scotland
4. Afghanistan
5. UAE
6. Oman
7. Namibia
8. Netherlands
9. Canada
10. Nepal
11. Qatar
12. Kuwait
13. Denmark
14. Uganda
15. Jersey
16. Guernsey
17. Bermuda
18. Norway
19. USA
20. Singapore
21. Argentina
22. Cayman Islands
23. Papua New Guinea
haha 17 sixes by G snyman wow what batting still coming to losing sad that really sad for me.well seems to me UAE and OMAN hving good time at moment. but i am happy that uganda registered a victory against ARG. that just make me change a bit so i am writing here comments again.I think Uganda fought well against UAE and OMAN after watching what they are doing to other sides.these teams seems to me got players who r good hitter and can hit some sixes in no time at all. I still think uganda should have oman game in pocket they got good pace bolwers have there been extra pace man like charles waiswa or even ISANEEZ they may have sealed the game that day. but thats part of life i wish they can somehow upset namibia that will make me feel so happy n i am sure to uganda cricket too.coming to the reality i think uganda at moment have greater runrate than denmark . so if some how even arg can upset they will have chance (i am not sure about the rules for this tournemnt whether they opt for runrate or another criteria for qualifcation). hope uganda n namibia be last two teams to qualify. plz namibian u r almost there give ur younger brother some chance too to develop cricket in its country.
Rich – Just how are Qatar and Kuwait supposed to finish 11th and 12th in the World Cup qualifier when they’re not even in WCL Division Five?
well interesting to know how uganda loss to denmark they gave 70 runs in last 5 overs wow not so great in death overs need to learn on it they lose in same against oman n then against denamrk otherwise they were decent.those last 5 overs 70 runs cause them defeat n something other to mention .
SEVENTY runs given away in the last five overs, a brawl in the dressing room at the break, a wicket lost in the blue, were some of the features that characterised Uganda’s third loss here yesterday.
A near fight ensued in the dressing room, with players accusing each other of sabotage. haha
interesting real cause of concern for them but now they can look forward to big win on friday come on do it just put ur full efforts may God be kind to you on that day.
Relax, Farhan. Uganda were trying to be put back to Div 3 so that they would have another tournament to prepare for the WCQ. I’m not sure if any of the players were aware of that plan, but they’ve pulled it off perfectly… 😉
I do think that conditions matter quite a bit when it comes to the Associate World. The Middle East countries who play alot of cricket on Astro Turf and Concrete seem to be enjoying the flat hard wickets of namibia, whereas they struggled in Scotland and Canada.
Well Andrew, let me ask you this, Should teams like Japan, Cook Islands, Mozambique, and the Bahamas really be playing in the WCL Div. 5 just because their region only has 6 teams, while much better teams such as Qatar, Bahrain, and Saudi Arabia aren’t getting anything. FIFA’s allocation of World Cup places to Europe is a good example of how things should be done!
This system works well.
If the Asian teams in Div 5 finish in the top 5 of that tournament then they will hold their place.
The bottom five teams will go back to their respective regional qualifiers.
So if Singapore, Nepal and Afghanistan finish in the top 5 this will allow another Asian nation to enter the World Cricket League in 2010 without replacing one of the existing Asian nations.
If the Asian nations perform well they could have 10 or more competing at this level by 2020 where as EAP might only have 3.
It will even itself out over time.
Just a point about Uganda for Farhan and others. One good thing that has come out of this tournament for Uganda is the exposure to big time cricket that youngsters such as Arthur Kyobe, Daniel Ruyange and Ronald Ssemanda have gained. These three players seem to have come through the experience with their reputation enhanced. It is doubtful whether they might have been selected if Uganda had a full squad at their disposal. Perhaps the administrators there might be able to smooth out whatever selection problems they might have in time for the next qualifying tournament. With Ssemanda, Kyobe and Ruyange establishing themselves nicely plus the addition of Hamza Saleh, Charles Waiswa, Junior Kwebiha, Roger Mukasa and no doubt a couple more youngsters from the Ugandan talent conveyor belt as well as reliable players like Kenny Kamyuka, Joel Olweny and Frank Nsubuga, the side suddenly looks quite strong.
Argentina have done ok to get this far. We should take into account that they weren’t expected to progress past the American qualifiers, so this is a good learning curve for the players and those running the game down there. One thing is clear though! They must make the effort to increase their playing pool if they are to seriously challenge for a World Cup spot in the future. They are well organized, have good facilities and a strong link to a growing number of private schools and colleges but it isn’t enough. Perhaps it is time for the development team to take the sport to the poorer barrios and the public schools in the Western and South Western zones of Buenos Aires. Imagine what Argentina could achieve in this sport with 3000 players to choose from instead of 300!
Nishadh – I appreciate that many people think the ICC should be biased towards the (consistently under-performing) Asia region, but I disagree. The allocation of places in WCL5 is perfectly fairly split equally (almost) by region. FIFA allocate so many World Cup places to Europe because the European region is the most consistently successful. The Asian region in cricket simply isn’t consistently successful by any stretch of the imagination.
Remember that this is the first cycle of the WCL. It will take probably ten years before a truer picture emerges. The cream will rise to the top. If the Asian teams are good enough, they’ll climb the ladder.
Andrew, Guernsey aren’t in WCL Div 5 either and they’re on my (purely hypothetical) list too. It’s based on who I think would be competitive regardless of where they are in the official structure. As you and Bensti say, though, it’ll take a while before the official structure gives a true picture. At the moment that means several fairly good Asian teams, and one or two European ones aren’t in Div 5, but that (very probably) several weaker ones from the other regions are.
Bensti – do you have knowledge of ICC’s plans for the future of the WCL? I haven’t seen anything officially from them but am hoping, as you suggest, that they go through the divisions again before the next World Cup. As you say I’d have the top 2 from Div 5 promoted, with 3,4 & 5 holding their places, joined by 5th & 6th from Div 4, plus I’d have 7 regional qualifiers – 2 from each of the regions that performed best last time round (probably Asia and Europe) and 1 each from the other 3.
i dont think that uganda beating namibia is that far fetched….. think about it….. namibia are low on morale, and uganda are on an all time high after beating the mighty argentians! …… all that they have to contend with is snyman’s 8 sixes and 8 fours…… the guys has hit 32 sixes and 34 fours in 4 innings?!?!?!
Argentina got to 18 runs of Oman, and Uganda had it in the bag against them until Farhan khan came in the end….. from that point onwards Oman has beaten Denmark and Namibia…….. so this is just a weird tournament….. the only thing that will make sense after this is if Oman goes ahead from here and thrashes Kenya, loses to Bermuda, then thrashes Australia and loses to Bangladesh……
btw, last year, UAE toured Namibia and lost by an innings in the intercontinental cup game….. they never looked to be in the game……. what the hell happenned to them over 1 year !?
Regarding conditions, the only ones who seem to be not adapting to the conditions are the home team…..
Somebody should actually fund an Afghanistan tour of Ireland/Scotland/Netherlands……. it doesnt look like they are that far off if Oman’s standard is anything to go by…….
Yeah, I was under the impression that the bottom five from Div 5 would go back to their respective regions to try and re-qualify.
As we all know, The ICC has altered the structure of the World Cricket League without notice previously, so the current format could also change.
I like your idea of having a larger pool of teams in Div 5. I think that is a must.
The current world league system is ad hoc….. it is only leading up to 2009 ICC Trophy…. after that ICC will change it again I think…..
Bensti, if you remember, the ICC used to have a different world cricket league structure a couple of years back….. that one was supposed to be permanent (interestingly, it didnt even last a year)…… that was very similar to the existing structure except the fact that top 3 in Div 3 would stay there, but the other 5 would always be the next ranked teams from the respective regions….. there was no concept of Div 4 or Div 5….
When they changed it, I had this strong feeling that it was basically to give an oppurtunity to Afghanistan and Nepal to come up, as they seemed to get bogged down a lot….
Given 10 years, as people are mentioning here, even the old world cricket league format would have auto corrected itself, the stronger regions would have had more teams in the league.
I think the subject of conditions could be significant. What has changed since Namibia played UAE a year ago? I will be interested to see where the World Cup qualifiers will be held in 2009?
Okay to answer my own question they’ll be held in the UAE. I would place a lot of money on UAE and Oman qualifying for the world cup knowing this, which would be a real shame for associate cricket. Namibia have definatly underperformed in this tournament, although its worth noting they are without Sarel Burger, Louis Burger, Craig Williams and Henno Prinsloo, who could all be playing. They are lucky Gerrie Snyman turned up or they’d be in trouble.
the system can be changed slightly even in 2008 itself if the top 4 teams from the wcl div 5 & wcl div 4 get promoted to the next highest division. so the road to qualify becomes –
wcl div 5(12 teams) – top 4 teams go to wcl div 4
wcl div 4(8 teams now instead of 6) – top 4 into wcl div 3
wcl div 3(again 8 teams now instead of 6) – top 4 into icc trophy 2009
icc trophy 2009(14 teams now instead of 12) – top 6 into wc 2011
and this way the top 6 teams will still get in without altering the existing structure. this is also possible considering that the wcl div 5 was originally scheduled to be of 8 teams, but got expanded to 12. so, the wcl div 4 & 3 which are meant to be 6 team tournaments become 8 team tournaments
Oh please, if we had 11 foreigners playing for Argentina we’d win as well. I’m so sick of teams like Canada, the USA, Oman and the UAE fielding players who’ve even played for other countries and getting away with it. When on earth will the ICC amend its ridiculous regulations? Our Argie team is made up of 13 Argie born and bred players, and a South African who’s been here for over 8 years. It’d be an awfully funny moment if teams were to sing their national anthems before the games, wouldn’t it?
I’m also quite sick of having to listen to this nonsense about how Asian teams should get more spots. Like Andrew said, they’re awfully inconsistent.
Let’s just wait until the Division 5 tournament and see if Afghanistan even make it out of it.
To the guy who said we should take cricket to the poorer barrios in Buenos Aires… it’s bloody impossible, and it’s never ever going to happen. Rugby is more popular than cricket and it’s still to make it outside of North BA, and it probably never will.
There is no way we can draw the poor people away from football and into cricket, people don’t even know what cricket is over here, and the fact that cricket news are only published on the English-language newspapers doesn’t help at all. Still, cricket is growing, but at an awfully slow pace, and I’m quite certain that if we’re relegated from Division 2, which seems almost certain, we’ll be relegated from Division 3 next time around as well, ’cause perhaps teams like Hong Kong and Italy can capitalise on some Indian or Pakistani under 19s.
Uganda are gonna roll Namibia.
Namibia 145 all out. Uganda to bat on a decent strip.
Hopefully Denmark won’t beat Argentina by too many…
Argentina all out 168, by my calculations there is no way Denmark can get past Uganda or Namibia on NRR if the Ugandans manage to beat Namibia.
wow that be pressure chase for uganda need to batt with clam and go for run chase .on denamrk and namibia i think 168 be enough DENAMRK may be needed to knock those runs in about 15 something overs.they are 22 for 2 so good start by ARG in the bowling its really heating up for grand finsh of wcl 2.
The scores are not coming through frequently today with the exception of Denmark who scraped through against Argentina. Hopefully if Uganda win it will put themselves and Namibia through. All we need then is for Nepal and Afghanistan to make it through from division 5 and everybody who comes on these blogs should be happy.
Unfortunately Uganda have been skittled by Snyman (5wickets), all out 118. Namibia have been a bit of a one-man show, so near yet so far yet again for Uganda
Back to Div 3 for Uganda and Argentina.
I am sure uganda will never make it to wcq again i think its all good bye for ever to uganda cricket i am sure after this defeat all thier progress be goona finish , cricket is not thier major game they need to concentrate on football really from now , i dont see any future for uganda cricket all is gone, i think 2 other teams to join wcq be cymanisland and one other team be afghinstan, that be the lineup for 12 teams and cricket is goone be the game for asians ppl always.
actully thats realy shocking for me but i think i need to controll myself and be honest n serious on serious thing they deserve to be not in first 4 so they are out.and thats reality i am sorry for my passionate comments.
ok friends oman has defeated UAE so i think 6 teams to make up for WC be ireland, scotland,oman,UAE,namibia and one team i bet coming from div 3 and that be probably afghinstan.that will complete the lineup.so its bye from WCL div 2.sad end waht promises to be treat.
Well, the point to be noted in the Nam v Ugan game is whether Ugan got bowled out in their bid to chase down the runs in as quick a time as possible?…I just think on a normal day, they might have pulled this one off against Nam…And..yes, I agree that Nam have been too dependent on Snyman even against these teams which is clearly not a good omen for them…
And…Oman…they have managed what nobody believed they could…I think their performance here explains Afghanistan’s struggles against them…Oman and Afghanistan may both be good enough to take on Ire, Sco, Neth, Ken if not Ban and Zim…I think the world order below the top 10 would be (assuming all teams are in their full strength):
Ire, Sco, Ken, Afg, Neth, Nam, Oman, Can, UAE, Den, Ugan and the rest…
But the good thing from this WCL qualification system is that teams of similar standard are playing against each other, minimizing not only the number of mismatches but also help get an idea of the hierarchy below the top 8 or 10…I guess the last piece of this jigzaw is when Afg and Nepal come through the ranks and get an oppourtunity to play against these teams more regularly…
If the Ugandans did their maths right they should have realised that they didn’t need to worry about the run rate, the Danes were way behind them on that. In fact they finished with a superior run rate to that of the Danes despite losing. I suspect they just got blown away by a guy tired of putting in match-winning performances but still ending up on the losing side
well on the poin these teams are evenaly matched i think on given day any of associate team can beat any other team(speacillly one packed with asian expats). ones with asian expats you can’t predict anything i think asian teams have great chance to make through to wc.though that will not attract too much interest of ppl back to thier countries but thats reality. i think even KSA, QATAR,KUWAIT would have been too strong for uganda, ARG,DENAMARK,NAMIBIA so i think thats power fo these expat players, i knew many of my friends from pak are playing in KSA really strong players here in pak and now serving in KSA and thhier standard is yet too better than indegnious players teams.On uganda cricket note i think they never goona get so close to qualifcation they have lost it i wish they have gone thorugh but i can see that they will now never make into any kind of cricket nation . i think they never be able to put such tem again so that was the best chance for them its gone feel for them really sad.
I agree with Roddy that its a shame to see teams full of expats like Oman and UAE looking likely to qualify for the World Cup. I’d rather see Bermuda there again.
According to Wikipedia only 32% of the population of UAE are Arabs, whilst 57% come from South Asia. About a fifth of Oman’s population are also expats. Now why shouldn’t they represent the country they’re living in if they fulfil the qualifications? In what way don’t they count, especially as in UAE where they are in the majority?
well TOM cricket is passion i never think that nations like oman and UAE can produce such passion for cricket . even if they ever goona win WC its like different. look when AUS win is not the same as PAK OR INDIA r winning.i think those expats in such countries dont have such thing they just play for fun they are not caring it for country.while if u r indegenious ppl u will always play for ur nation.n pride of ur nation ia m saying as some of my friends are playing for such nations and i had thier views about it.
on final places i think UAE gonna WIN, NAMIBIA be at 3rd and i hope(this time)that ARG get 6th place instead . i thiunk6 th place to uganda will give good lesson to thier management what hte reality is never compromise on players just for something stupid need to learn from pak they were without shoaib now he is alone breaking the stumps of indians(though nobdy other is helping).take care of ur best players.
i am really passionate supporter of the game i rally love to see play this game by new ppl like of afghans, nepal,uganda,tanz it was hearting as they did not mange this time i think it be really tough for them here now to even make for wc.BUT I am sure one team still can beat these expats packed sides that be afghanistan hope they somehow get close enough.
“… look when AUS win is not the same as PAK OR INDIA r winning.i think those expats in such countries dont have such thing they just play for fun they are not caring it for country …”
What do you mean? Aus are a team of expats?
Keeping things a little in perspective, this is the first time that UAE actually had 8 players in their squad of 14 who were in the “born and bred” category, and not in the expat category. UAE victories were still based on the expats like Khurram Khan, Saqib Ali, Arshad Ali and the Silvas, but this is the first time I have seen UAE moving forward with some sort of local development. Indegenous will also come if they keep on moving in this direction.
Full name Abdul Rehman
Born January 2, 1987, Ajman
Major teams United Arab Emirates, United Arab Emirates Under-17s
Full name Irfan Ahmed
Born date unknown
Major teams United Arab Emirates Under-19s
Full name Amjad Javed
Born July 5, 1980, Dubai
Major teams United Arab Emirates
Full name Rohan Mustafa
Born date unknown
Major teams United Arab Emirates Under-19s
Full name Aman Ali
Born date unknown
Major teams United Arab Emirates
Full name Mohammad Iqbal
Born March 29, 1977, Dubai
Major teams United Arab Emirates
Full name Owais Hameed
Born date unknown
Major teams United Arab Emirates Under-19s
Full name Qais Farooq
Born date unknown
Major teams United Arab Emirates
Just to clarify: Aman Ali and Qais Farooq are both U-19s
Good point about UAE moving in the right direction, there is also Qasim Zubair, Fahad Alhashmi and Naeemuddin Aslam who are also born in the UAE who have played for them recently. A least its a step in the right direction. Oman on the other hand, i don’t really care about the demographic’s its the fact that the whole team is dependent on people not born in the country. I think there is only one in the whole squad. Its the rules that are the problem here.
On a change of subject, does the results of the WCL2 suggest that Nepal and Afghanistan who have done well against the likes of Oman and UAE could do something. Maybe they could also challenge for a place at the world cup.
Oman is no worse than Canada, who took a total of one Canadian-born player out of 14 on their recent tour of Africa. UAE rely quite a bit on foreign-born players, but so do Netherlands.
All in all we should see a similar mix of indigenous and expat players as the next world cup as at the last one.
well nasir on ur comments about AUS i mean cricket to ppl in AUS is not as pssionate game as other sports r likes rugby and surely soccer.they would like thier national teams to excell in these sports more rather cricket. here in subcontinent only passionate sport is cricket so i was point out this main point i think u got what i mean.So for people in oman and UAE again cricket is not the the spot to really excell. they are also somehow soccer loving nations.also in crikcet most of there players are not indigenous(i think none).so again thier is not so much passion for whether thier teams winning this WCL div2 as might have been if it has won by indigenous teams like uganda or afghinstan.
further i think we should not talk more on expats and indigenous players i hav already some ppl turn as my enemy on disccusing this issue on some blogs.
i am cricket fan n i want to develop this sport into some new indigenous population.so i will support such nations thats all.
Final standings of WCL Div 2:
UAE
Oman
Namibia
Denmark
Uganda
Argentina
If you look at the posting above, were I made the prediction at the beginning of the tournament, you will notice that the ranking of the other teams is accurate, and even the ranking of UAE relative to Oman is accurate :), but I guess we didnt know how strong the Asian region was compared to the others.
Farhan, as an Australian, I can tell you that you are talking absolute rubbish. Cricket is the Australian national sport, and the captain is held in higher regard than anyone else in the country, including the prime minister. Soccer barely rates a mention with most people. We have a number of sports to choose from, but that doesn’t mean that we aren’t passionate about them, and cricket takes the number one spot around the country.
We fill grounds during Test matches – I don’t see that happening in the sub-continent!
As one World Cup qualifying tournament ends, another begins.
The East-Asia-Pacific Cup began in New Zealand today, with the top two place getters progressing on to the World Cricket League Division 5 tournament.
Day 1
Japan 143-5 d Vanuatu 142
Cook Islands 149-6 d Indonesia 148
Samoa 191 d Tonga 105
Good to see all the squads containing a good number of born and bred players including Indonesia and Vanuatu which have amongst the largest development programs in the associate/affiliate world and are countries to watch over the next 10 years. Good to see the Japanese squad with 10 born and bred players as well.
Cook Islands would win this….. I would be very surprised if someone else does so…..
Yeah Cook Islands look strong. Apparently Samoa have a very good squad at the moment also. Vanuatu and Indonesia are in the formative stages of their immensely prolific development programs, so we probably shouldn’t expect too much from them for another 3-4 years but after that lookout. Tonga has a home grown team and Japan will hopefully continue their steady improvement.
Squads:
COOK ISLANDS: Patiia Ataeara, Chris Brown, Dunu Eliaba, Tino Etita, Pita Glassie, Joseph Joe, John Kairua, Mou Maururai, Teanini Raumea, Dawn Tare, Enuake Tare, Rusan Tare, Davis Teinaki, Daniel Webb
INDONESIA: Pratyush Chaturvedi, Putra Dharmawan, Marten Eddy, Mohammad Imran, Srinivas Subramanian Krishnan, Subhash Modgil, Rajeev Kumar Radhakrishnan Nair, Fernandes Nato, Chad Jeremy Paull, Rajeev Rajeshwaran, Yesemberti O Rosongna, I Wayan Suandi, Simon Turnbull, Courtenay Werleman
JAPAN: Masanori Abe, Gavin Beath, Tatsuro Chino, Tatsuo Fuji, Patrick Giles-Jones, Takuro Hagihara, Shunsuke Hashiba, Ko Irie, Courtney Jones, Masaomi Kobayashi, Naoki Miyaji, Ahmed Munir, Kenji Murata, Kazuya Shibata
SAMOA: Niko Apa, Alton Carmine, Geoffrey Clarke, Faavae Faaofo,
Konelio Faiilagi, Lautala Fuimaono, Itugia Ieremia, Uala Kaisara, Ake Lotoalofa, Ben Mailata, Winston Mariner, Pritchard Pritchard, Uilisone Taisala, Sipiliano Tua
TONGA: Maunaloa Faivakimoana, Faka’osita’u Hala, Aisake Haukinima, Sione Hakaumotu Holi, Simione Latu, ‘Efalame Laumape, Mafi Matapule Langi, Mafi Matapule Laumape, Kaluseti ‘Ofahulu, Livi’aetau Pese, Ivan Ta’akimoeaka, Tevita Po’uli Taulani, Salesi Mafi Tu’akoi, Sione Loutalo Vite
VANUATU: Pierre Chilia, Jonathon Dunn, Selwyn Garae, Patrick Haines,
Aby Joel, Ben Kingsbury, Trevor Langa, Andrew Mansale, Edy Mansale, Kenneth Natapei, Manu Nimoho, Simpson Obed, Richard Tatwin, Frederick Timakata
Vanuatu is too small a country….. Bermuda teaches us something….. and that is that it is not that far fetched a theory to talk about player base….. Bermuda, with their professional squad, $11 million, ODI status, cricket culture, world cup appearence and 17 ODIs/ year have managed to get way worse than they were 2 years ago, now losing to Denamrk, Namibia, UAE and Uganda……
So I dont know what Vanuatu will be able to accomplish in terms of standard, unless Australia starts playing 3-4 of heir players in the Sheffield Shield games or something……. some Cook Is players do play in NZ btw…..
Yeah, true, with just 211,000 people, it will be difficult for Vanuatu to qualify for a World Cup, although I think Bermuda’s population might be around 70,000, so there is hope.
On the plus side for Vanuatu, there are only 9 associates/affiliates with larger junior playing numbers and by all accounts cricket is really capturing the imagination of the public.
Indonesia, on the other hand, with their massive population, have great potential.
Encouragingly, they seem to have a well run administration that by all accounts is determined to make cricket a mainstream sport in the country. They already have good numbers also, both in junior playing and involvement, so I look forward to seeing where they are at 10 years from now.
I would like to think that they may be in a position to qualify for World Cricket League Div 1 tournament by 2017.
Nasir….Take out Japan and Indonesia from this tournament and you’ll actually find that Vanuatu are the biggest nation playing there…am not sure what you’re trying to say there…In fact, Japan and Indonesia are the only meaningful countries in the EAP region…Btw, does anyone have any idea on what sort of development is taking place if at all in Phillipines and South Korea, the other two major countries in the region?…These 2 countries have been part of the ICC for a few years now but there hasn’t been any news from them….
Ram – South Korea played in a tournament in 2002 (with an entirely Korean side), but nothing since then has come from them, though they do have a national league. No idea about the state of the game in the Philippines at the present time.
South Korea has 60 players! what are you guys talking about?
Nasir – I never said they didn’t have any players!
I was saying that sarcastically…… why all the excitement about a country that has 60 players….. and that may have gone down to 25 players now….. in other words, they DONT play cricket
Until a sport becomes as big as football, small countries will always have a chance of doing well, and should be encouraged.
Tonga and Samoa, with smaller populations than Vanuatu, recently played (and did well) in the Rugby Union world cup, and have both qualified for the Rugby League World Cup next year. Cricket is WAY behind in development terms, but if it were to take off seriously there there’s no reason to say they couldn’t have teams in a future World Cup.
ICC has a progression structure in place. If you are one of the top 6 associates, you will be given 4 years with an ODI status, and a challenging calender including lots of ODIs and ICC trophy games. The requirement in that case is that you “step up” to the next level. This is where countries with very small player bases, like Bermuda, have a problem. They got to the top 6 fair and square in 2005, but after losing a player here and there, they just did not have the player base, or talent pool, to get the next guys coming in. They tried to spend a lot of money on the juniors, but nothing has been coming about. They are on record saying that it is difficult, and I understand, to find 11 “1 in a million” players from a total number of 2000 boys. And that is the entire number, they cannot increase it.
Size of the talent pool is definitely a factor in terms of why the standard of a team is low. I am sure that rigby does not have an ODI status,and does not require teams to “take a step up” during a 4 year period.
Yep, with just 67,000 people it is difficult to expect Bermuda to find 11 world class players.
But I was surprised that Vanuatu’s population as many as 211,000. I think it is a workable base, particularly if the game continues to gain popularity as it has done recently.
In fact, the playing numbers there are already larger than Bermuda’s, so there is hope I feel, particularly when you consider how many world class players Barbados has produced with 260,000.
Spare a thought for the Cook Islands! According to recent figures they have a population of just 21,750.
Some other tiny nations in the ICC family include:
St Helena 5,968
Turks & Caicos 34,851
Guernsey 63,908
Isle of Man 75,931
Jersey 89,485
Cayman Is 50,348
Gibraltar 26,268
I also got incorrectly entangled once into comparing WI individual island numbers with Bermuda. Antigua produced Ambrose, W Benjamin, V Richards, Richie Richardson, K Benjamin, Andy Roberts within a span of 20 years. In fact, if they had an ODI team in 1987, it would have had Richards, Richardson, W Benjamin and Ambrose. But that evaluation is incorrect.
These players took the “step up” because of West Indies, not because of Antigua’s touring program, facilities, or cricket economy. That is very important. I am sure that if Bermuda is part of WI, they will be able to produce a couple of cricketers who would become champs in the WI team; there is no reason to believe they cannot. But on their own, to sustain a certain standard, their population gets in the way. Antigua’s 1987 line up should be compared with what they would have had in 1997 through today!, and that is with Test country funds.
I think that the player base has to be about 50K cricketers for the country to have a serious standard. Your pyramid should consist of 15K senior, about 35K junior cricketers. This was somewhat the number that pre exodus Zimbabwe had, and they had a decent standard. I doubt that Vanuatu will be able to get ALL of their population to play only cricket, which is the only way such numbers can be achieved by them.
btw, Bensti, the tiniest ICC member is Falkland Islands, with a population of 3000.
Yep, well the way Vanuatu have started their development program, they may just get most of their population involved. 🙂
It’s pretty phenomenal what they have achieved in the last 4-5 years with 1440 junior players already and the word is this figure will jump again when the next survey is published. The only other associate/affiliate nations with significantly better junior playing numbers right now are Nepal, Afghanistan, Ireland, Papua New Guinea, Scotland and Malaysia.
EAP Day 2
Cook Is 102-2 d Tonga 101
Japan 106-2 d Indonesia 105
Vanuatu 200-9 d Samoa 108
Nasir, you have made a good point about the difficulty of using domestic teams as a comparison, but I’d say that 50k is a bit more than is really needed, after looking at the Australian state participation levels. Given that Tasmania are the current state champions (playing without Ricky Ponting), they are a good example to look at. In 2004, their total player base was 13K, made up of 8K in club cricket and the rest from schools. I would say that a full strength Tasmanian team would be able to challenge a few of the test teams, including the West Indies and New Zealand. Western Australia and South Australia both have around 37K.
Like you say, though, it is hard to compare domestic to test, as the level of funding needed is also a factor. The size of the “cricket economy” is also important, which includes not only the player base, but the supporter base as well. I’d say that 30K would be a good benchmark, with 10K seniors, plus a solid governance structure and a professional contract system, and about 10 years international experience. If Namibia, Uganda,Afghanistan & Nepal keep going the way they are going, then they should be able to challenge the test nations in the next 10-15 years, and no sooner than that. Vanuatu and Indonesia aren’t anywhere near having 10K seniors, so we’ll need a bit more patience for them.
well for uganda all hard work has gone waste i did not see them recover from now they be going below and below.i just read this article from uganda media.
“HOPEFULLY, there will be a lot of soul searching when the national cricket team returns from its second most disastrous trip in recent times. The 2005 ICC Trophy undid nearly 15 years of hard work — with the country plunging from 10th among Associate members in Canada 2001, to nearly 21st in the world.”
Farhan – 10th amongst associate members to 21st in the world would only be a drop of one place! Hardly plunging! 21st in the world is also an improvement on after the 2005 ICC Trophy when they were ranked at 23rd in the world.
Nathan, I discussed some reasons about associate countries being weak a couple of years back:
And farhan…… why are you talking as if it is the end of Uganda cricket ?!
Let’s not forget that it’s only 3 months since Uganda beat Kenya. Unless Uganda completely screw up in the Division Three tournament in 2009, they’ll be in the WCQ later that year. And if they do completely screw up, they won’t deserve to be there. And before farhan goes on one of his ex-pat rants, Uganda didn’t get relegated because other countries picked some ex-pats, they got relegated because they weren’t good enough to finish fourth in a six team tournament.
They did lose out because of the “expat problem”. Lets not loose focus of that here. They got relegated purely on non cricketing reasons. The only reason why UAE and Oman have won this tournament is because their economies are much stronger than Uganda, and have open migration from the subcontinent. There is no cricketing reason. UAE may have fielded 8 born and bred players, but all the games were won by the 5 expats.
Rego mentions again and again that skills also have to be sustained, and the country’s domestic league has a huge part to play in that, even if the players are expats. The question I would ask here is how can we be sure that the domestic league in Uganda is any worse than UAE or Oman? We cannot. UAE league may actually be much worse than Uganda; there is no definitive answer for that.
Uganda’s development programs are 10 times better than either those of UAE or Oman. I think Oman doesnt even have a proper cricket ground. If Uganda are losing out, the reason is not purely a cricketing one….
Any expat rant is not pointless….. I dont know who one would be kidding if the six ODI teams next time were to be Oman, UAE, Signapore, Hong Kong, Bahrain and Kuwait…….
Well Nasir, we’ll have to disagree on this as always. As long as you’re not going be a hypocrite and fail to criticise Uganda for picking an ex-pat player…
And farhan…… why are you talking as if it is the end of Uganda cricket ?!
there are many reasons for it. main points i goona tell u.
this was one of the uganda strongest side ever after victories over kenya bermuda and displaying good show against bangladesh.i doubt they ever going to achieve such team again.these was players mostly of them participated in under 19 worldcups so they have some exposure after this defeat many of players be going to find thier job some where else as next cricketing assignment for them be after 2 years so they will be giving this sport forever for thier livings(most of associates problem).also they wont be geeting enough exposure from now in these 2 years as would have been case if they would have been in top 4 position.uganda under 19 also performed poorly so nolot of players coming up for backup.
cricket was on high after some victories for uganda and there was lot of crowds seen in uganda agianst kenya, i thought these 2 teams could have benfited a lot and there would have been great interest for both the countries i doubt it would happen now. deafeat always lacks the interest of people there.there some other reasons to be honest.
I believe rules on non-nationals is that two are loud to play who have not been living in the country for more than seven years or something like that. Why should these special two be aloud to play? That is my main problem with countries like Oman and UAE. Fair play to those who have lived there for extended periods of over 7 years, however the fact is if UAE or Oman got to the World Cup it would be based on the exploits of a chosen few players. Oman for example have one player born in the country and he did not bowlin the final and batted at number 11. I am not saying ban ex-pats but maybe a solution would be to make sure there is at least 5 players born in the country playing in a match?
Andrew, what are you saying? That Uganda is an expat team? In the same league as Oman? Do I have to explain a difference between Uganda and Oman?
The answer to all this is very simple. If you believe that expat based countries are the way forward, then be happy, and best of luck. If one wants to define expansion of cricket in this manner, and be happy that now a lot of americans and arabs are playing the game, then thats fine as well. It would be in line with how the ICC thinks.
Uganda/Namibia should have beaten UAE and Oman. At least Uganda should have beaten Denmark. I said this a number of times before as well that Namibia/Uganda have to beat expat based teams in order to prove their standard. Uganda didnt, they got knocked out. If the current sitaution prevails, then Oman and UAE are going to be ODI teams in 2009 instead of Bermuda and Canada. UAE it may be ok, looking at their team composition, but Oman cricket team getting ODI status is just a bad joke, and is a very obvious indicator to the failure of cricket expansion in these countries, while also highlighting the low standard of the playing standard development process.
Nasir – I’m not saying that Uganda are an ex-pat team, I just want you to be consistent and criticise them for picking a player born outside Uganda. Is anyone not born in the country they represent an ex-pat player?
I also don’t think that Oman are an ex-pat based team. They’re a team based on players born outside Oman, yes, but there is a big difference between someone born outside a country they now live in, and an ex-pat, and it’s about time people realised that. In the tournament, Oman played two players born in Oman, meaning that at least seven other players will have lived in Oman for at least seven years or be Omani nationals. Is seven years or being an Omani national not enough to be considered a non ex-pat? What about Adnan Ilyas, who though he was born in Pakistan, played for Oman Under-17s seven years ago? Is he an ex-pat?
Also, all players in the team will have fitted the development criteria, which means they will be part of Omani cricket. Despite whatever delusions you may be under, they can’t turn up in Muscat and walk straight into the Oman team these days.
Expecting teams to be made up of completely born and bred players is highly unrealistic, and is simply not a rational expectation in the modern world.
Regardless of the fact that Oman’s players are eligible under ICC regulations, Oman getting ODI status would be a mockery of the ICC massive development program for the simple reason that Oman have no development program to speak off. Furthermore, it isn’t even a similar case to the UAE where there is a huge number of quality expat cricketers along with the up and coming crop of new players. Oman rely solely on this current group of about 8 players who, in my opinion are very talented as a group, to win matches for them. I’m afraid that once some of these guys retire, they will struggle!!!
“Despite whatever delusions you may be under, they can’t turn up in Muscat and walk straight into the Oman team these days”
It is exactly like this. In many cases, players are hired by clubs to improve their standard from the subcontinent. After 4 years of playing cricket in the club they become eligable to play for that country. After seven years of a cricket related employment, they become eligable without restrictions.
This is a major loophole that countries like Hong Kong do exploit. Encouranging such models is not constructive by any strech of the imagination, and instead of being blind to the names of the countries, one should feel sorry for the fact that the countries where the development is taking place in the normal fashion are simply not good enough to challenge the expat teams…. the standard of whom can best be termed as subcontinent first class level …..
“Is anyone not born in the country they represent an ex-pat player”
No they dont, if they come through the development process it doesn matter where they were born, and I have discussed that many times on this blog. Most Oman players are those who came to Oman in their mid 20s and have now qualified to represent the country at age 31-32.
“Expecting teams to be made up of completely born and bred players is highly unrealistic, and is simply not a rational expectation in the modern world.”
Pay attention to what I am saying ….. the issue here is not that a kid at the age of 8 went to a country and has come through the age level development structures to represent them at age 25. At least 2 of Oman’s top performers were in the Karachi First Class/ List A team. First class players try to find alternative means of livelihood in Pakistan because in most cases, you cannot make ends meet with the salary. If, for e.g., 11 of them migrate to Oman, and start working there, in 7 years, does it suddenly mean that Oman is a tremendous up and coming cricket team?
Only in Fools Paradise.
In most cases people dont see a problem with this becuase they think of national cricket teams as nothing more than franchises or clubs. The situation in Oman is such that the actual Omani nationals formed a breakaway league because the “expats” were not selecting them for the national teams or giving them token matches. And here were are discussing that the Oman team is not really “expat” team.
The problem as I see it is an ethical one.
On one hand we have countries where scores of volunteers work their guts out teaching the game to the uninitiated, taking the game to schools, spending money out of their own pocket, negotiating with headmasters and teachers to adopt the game, recycling old bats and balls or carving bat shapes out of wood or finding a way to obtain another kanga-cricket set for the kids and all this on a shoe string budget.
On the other hand we have countries that quite simply do not have any interest in doing any of the hard work that is associated with junior development. They are lazy and perfectly happy to sit back and hope that the immigration policy of their Government does the work for them!
I admire the countries that have hard working people that are prepared to teach cricket to those that have never had the good fortune to try cricket before. They are the good folk that are genuinely adding value to the sport.
Bensti/ Rego…… well said…..
Bensti, the ICCs policy should be rewarding the former case, not the latter one…… at least, if the latter cannot be rewarded, the recognition that there is a problem should be there, rather than going on rants about being excited only by the number of flags…..
Actually, if this is how the ICC would want it to be, then it serves them right to have Oman, Bahrain, Singapore, Saudi Arabia, Hong Kong and Qatar as their next ODI teams…… then we will see who talks about what in the 2011 world cup…. and I would be very interested in seeing how these countries take the step up during their ODI years….
well andrew people would always support that time who has more of its indigenous players.there was great coverge for uganda cricket team in media but not that was not the case for other teams like oman.it seems most of international media want uganda to make it through.
EAP Day 3
Vanuatu 167 d Cook Is 124
Tonga 262 d Indonesia 242
Japan 220-9 d Samoa 187
Table
Japan 6
Cook Is 4
Vanuatu 4
Samoa 2
Tonga 2
Indonesia 0
good win for Vanuatu there, and a good performance from Indonesia although they are likely to finish bottom now. Unless there are some upsets, Vanuatu should get through to Div 5.
Nasir, you could at least be realistic. Three of those teams can’t even qualify for the next World Cup!
My main issue is with your definition of ex-pat. Most of the Oman players simply aren’t ex-pats under the standard definition. They’ve been living and working in Oman for more than seven years! They’re not like the Brits who move to Spain and put nothing into the country. They move to a country, work hard, pay their taxes, contribute to society, etc, etc, and deserve to be able to represent that country. But you accuse them of being imported by the cricket board, yet when they moved they might not have even been aware that cricket was played in the country!
I just think that by blaming other teams for picking “ex-pats” that you’re ducking the issue. Why not discuss how to make Uganda, Nepal and Afghanistan better, not make other teams worse?
Nasir and Andrew, you both have valid points, in fact this conversation has been the most insightful I’ve read on the ‘expat’ issue thus far.
What we really need is more information about Omani cricket. Are most of the team club pros, or people who emigrated to Oman and just happen to be good at cricket? If they are club pros, how are they financed if not through a thriving domestic scene (like in Ireland)?
What actually is their development plan, and if they aren’t interested in expanding the game, what is the ICC doing about it? I feel sure that if they were to qualify for the World Cup they would be forced to put a put a pretty good development system in place.
Just a little on the real reasons for Uganda’s failure to finish in the top four here: http://www.newvision.co.ug/D/8/30/600464
Their coach doesn’t blame the “ex-pats” on other teams at all!
If he were to do that, it would be seen as looking for faults..he would’ve been expected to raise the issue before the tournament..and since he was never going to do that..he was never going to blame expats after the tournament..therefore that point isnt valid!
As Rich B said, the discussion around “expats” sparked by the outcome of WCL 2 was actually in danger of being quite instructive, so let’s try not to get drawn into unhelpful point-scoring again. I think there are actually two threads being woven together here, and it might help to unpick them first and see where they lead to.
The first thread of this discussion seems to centre on the question, “Why did Uganda not get through?” It seems to me that they were competitive in three of the four games that they lost, but were unable to close any of them out. If they had managed to do that on just one of the three occasions, then perhaps we would be having a different discussion now. In my experience when you consistently come out on the losing side in games without being played off the park, then it is usually because of individual players taking the wrong options in certain situations or the captain making the wrong decisions in certain situations or both. Often, this happens because of lack of experience. Obviously I am talking from a perspective of imperfect information having not seen the matches unfold but it appears to me that these reasons may well have applied in Uganda’s case in this tournament.
This leads naturally on to the question of why Uganda did not field some of their players who have that experience of tight situations in Namibia and why they picked a 20 year-old playing in his first WCL tournament as captain. If you look at the team that won division 3, there were basically four “regulars” missing: Ochan (we know why he wasn’t there and whatever we think about that we have known for a while that Uganda were going to have to go to WCL2 without him), Kwebiha (who we hear was not able to get time off from his employers), Waiswa and Mukassa (who we hear were dropped for unspecified disciplinary reasons). Again I am speculating here on the basis of limited information but this state of affairs points to me to a mix of economics, organisation and politics. The coach’s comments only serve to heighten the impression of disunity in the camp.
I could speculate further on this thread but I will knot it here by concluding that in my view Uganda had the cricketing resources to qualify from WCL2, but were unable to deploy them effectively for reasons that to a large extent were within their own control.
The second thread of this discussion to me seems to be around “Should the fact that a team like Oman has done well be a cause for concern, and if so what should be done about it?” My view is that it is a cause for concern, because I don’t believe that the ICC’s idea of development is to create avenues for multiple teams of players schooled in India and Pakistan to play in international tournaments. It certainly isn’t my idea of cricket development in any case. However, I don’t think that the answer necessarily lies in altering the eligibility criteria, with the possible exception of doing away with the “deemed national” category, as I’m not sure that it still has a valid raison d’être as teams develop their own pools of experienced players. I think the response should be focused around how development funding is allocated. After all, if you are not developing players, why should you receive development funding?
I have looked a little at the profile of players who have been introduced into the Oman team for the first time for major tournaments since 2002. There were 16 for whom I could find details, of these 15 were born in either India or Pakistan and their average age when they first entered the side was just over 30 (only 2 were below the age of 25). Regardless of whether this is happy coincidence (economic migrants who happen to be good cricketers) or sinister design (Omani Authorities identifying talented cricketers and luring them to their shores), I would submit that this does not provide much evidence of a thriving Oman cricket development programme deserving of ICC/ACC financial support.
well Andrew we already pointed out that it was due to poor show of uganda that cost them place for finals.
i think it was all the fault of coach he seems to me lack of technical knowledge. also i read somewhere that it was him who dropped Mousaka,waisawa and some others.as i wrote in many 1 st post u can see i pointed out it was all doing of poor management, ugada did have the potenital to really get thorugh wcl 2 but they did not due to lack of cricketing terms. they were playing only 2 qucik bowlers and those 2 got them early wickets every match but then they have all spinners who were not able to further dent other sides (only argentina was unable to cope with spinners).why they did not put 3rd seamer ? strange in wcl 3 it was all due to pacers who bowled sides out . RUYANGE and KAMYUKA did best with new ball but in crucial games thier captain airnitwe who is spinner did not perform that well to back up those guys.look at the scorecard it will all clear what i said.
i was surprized they stick with only 2 pacers all the way why did not put emamnual ISANEEZ.
Its all over now they have been defeated so dont need to comment why they lost they are gone now and that is past.
Roland, that was an excellent summary, and good conclusions as well. I’m convinced now around the argument of development funds. Further to this, the reason that Oman are affiliate, and not associate, is that they don’t have a proper cricket ground. So all of the arguments that they must have a thriving domestic scene are surely put into doubt when you consider that they are only just now building their first cricket ground.
That article from the New Vision was very interesting, and highlights their lack of professionalism – not the players, but the team management. Hopefully they will learn and not repeat this in future tournaments.
Farhan
In reference to Emmanuel Isaneez! Perhaps this article has something to do with the fact that he was the only player in the squad not given any game time.
http://allafrica.com/stories/200711170038.html
Roland
Great post!
I don’t so much mind who wins and loses tournaments but I would prefer that more support be given to the countries that have hard working people taking cricket to schools and teaching the game to those that are unfamiliar with this great sport. Surely this is the intended spirit of the development program.
In the case of Norway for example: Their official participation figures at the end of 2006 were as follows:
Senior Players 360
Junior Players 0
Junior Involvement 50
Ok I have no problem that Norway have made it all the way to the WCL Div 5 but surely they have an ethical obligation to at least try and spread the sport beyond the small base of Pakistani players.
Japan on the other hand could select a national team made up entirely of players who learned their cricket elsewhere. Fortunately they refrain from this mercenary selection policy and always select a majority of Japanese players in a bid to encourage the growth of the game amongst the majority population. Almost certainly at the expense of instant results. I congratulate them for applying a moral stance for the long term betterment of the sport.
Japan’s participation figures at the end of 2006 were as follows:
Senior Playing 990
Junior Playing 395
Junior Involvement 2616
EAP Day 4
Rain lets Cook Islands off the hook.
26 over match: Cook Islands 79 (21 overs) P Giles-Jones 3-11, T Hagihara 3-15, M Abe 3-24 played Japan 50-1 (14 overs) – match abandoned
Tonga v Vanuatu – match abandoned without a ball bowled
Samoa v Indonesia – match abandoned without a ball bowled
Points Table
Japan 7
Cook Is 5
Vanuatu 5
Samoa 3
Tonga 3
Indonesia 1
Terribly unfortunate for Vanuatu who probably would have booked a place in WCL Div 5, had play been possible.
EAP Day 4
Rain lets Cook Islands off the hook.
26 over match: Cook Islands 79 (21 overs) P Giles-Jones 3-11, T Hagihara 3-15, M Abe 3-24 played Japan 50-1 (14 overs) – match abandoned
Tonga v Vanuatu – match abandoned without a ball bowled
Samoa v Indonesia – match abandoned without a ball bowled
Points Table
Japan 7
Cook Is 5
Vanuatu 5
Samoa 3
Tonga 3
Indonesia 1
Terribly unfortunate for Vanuatu who probably would have just about booked a place in WCL Div 5, had play been possible.
Absolutely! They look like they were only 5 overs away! Their next match is against Indonesia, and they will need a big win to get through to the WCL.
So Japan is through to Div 5?
There should be 1 game left right?
If Vanuatu and the Cook Islands win tomorrow, Japan could finish third on NRR.
EAP Day 5
It looks as though the three washed out matches from Thursday will be replayed tomorrow. Good decision!
Results Day 5
Japan 154-7 defeated Tonga 137 G Beath 3-30 by 17 runs.
Vanuatu 236 S Obed 74no, E Mansale 50, C Werleman 3-49) defeated Indoneisa 74 S Obed 3-6 by 162 runs.
Cook Islands 142 J Kairua 50, W Mariner 5-24 defeated Samoa 36 T Etita 3-8, J Joe 3-10 by 106 runs.
Points Table
Japan 8 +1.24
Cook Is 6 +1.41
Vanuatu 6 +1.36
Samoa 2 -0.76
Tonga 2 -1.27
Indonesia 0 -2.23
Nail biting finish in store tomorrow.
Does this mean the Japan-Cook Islands match is going to continue from where it stopped yesterday (a Japan win), or be replayed from the start, which could mean Japan finishing 3rd if they lose?
It starts again I presume, so the pressure is right on Japan who could tumble from first to third.
EAP Day 6
Japan and Vanuatu go through to WCL Div 5.
Cook Islands 118 T Etita 47, A Mabe 3-1 lost to Japan 119-5 (38.3 overs) G Beath 38 by five wickets.
Vanuatu 226 A Mansale 79, S Obed 48, T Taulani 3-32) defeated Tonga 161 (46 overs) I Ta’akimoeaka 40, S Vite 32, S Obed 4-54 by 65 runs.
Indonesia 167 C Paull 56, W Mariner 3-48 lost to Samoa 168-7 (40 overs)F Mailata 72no by three wickets.
Points Table
Japan 10
Vanuatu 8
Cook Is 6
Samoa 4
Tonga 2
Indonesia 0
A quite remarkable effort from Vanuatu, who fielded eight players under 22 and six who competed in the recent EAP Under 19 WCQ.
I knew that their development program was huge but I am surprised that it is yielding such results at senior level so soon. Fantastic!
The results are a little surprising. I thought Cook Islands would take this easily. Japan has beaten them, essentially 2 times in this tournament. A couple of years back Japan was losing to Cook Islands regularly, and only beating them by 1 or 2 wkts.
After expat domination in ICC tournaments, it’s good that Japan has now qualified to the WCL Div 5 event…In fact, this tournament has been refreshing because all teams are fielding mainstream players, atleast born and bred ones…Sometime last year, Japan lost to Cook Is. in an EAP tournament, now they’ve done better…Though it’s highly likely that Japan are going to fall back to their region after heavy thrashings in Div 5, it would be good because their participation should help them improve…Are there Japanese players (apart from who their keeper?) playing in Australian or NZ grade cricket because that way they can bridge the gap with some of the weaker Div. 5 teams over the next few years?…I guess that if Japan start showing some serious promise, they might actually interest some of the Test nations, as was the case with China…
Yes true Nasir.
I think this shows that there is some progress being made, in such that Cook Islands have possibly reached a ceiling point while Japan and Vanuatu continue to improve.
Interesting also that Japan has apparently constructed a turf pitch in the last 12 months which is a good sign and a clear indicator that they are steadily building their infrastructure.
Division 5 will be a great learning curve for both. Sure, they are unlikely to trouble the leading contenders such as Afghanistan, USA, Nepal and Jersey but they will gain plenty from the experience.
Masaomi Kobayashi has made the final EAP squad of 14 for the Australian Country Championships in January, so that will certainly assist his development.
Actually Bentsi there are a number of reasons why the Cook Islands might have reached a ceiling:
The Cook Islands are in free association with New Zealand and according to that arrangement all Cook Islanders are New Zealand citizens.
-This is a blessing and a curse since Cook Islanders can freely move to New Zealand where they can train in facilities much better than anything they have on their islands and then freely return to resume residency for the required time to play for the Cook Islands, but many Cook Islanders (around 8,000) simply move to New Zealand permanently and thus the population of the Cook Islands cannot increase substantially. According to this analysis: http://www.upf.pf/recherche/IRIDIP/RJP/RJP_HS02/10_henderson.pdf the population of the Cook Islands decreased from 21,000 in 1995 to around 15,000 in 2000 (although some estimates have the population back at 18,000 – 21,000 in 2007 but as late as November 2006 this BBC report: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/6112916.stm had the population being around 14,000). As a result the population of the Cook Islands hardly increases or it even decreases, thus cricket in the Cook Islands will have to work with a stagnant or decreasing population, while elsewhere population bases increase or have to potential for increase.
Thats interesting!
Thanks for that Chris. Yeah, its a very, very small population to work with.
So….. whats the opinion on a joint Polynesian Islands team? It can contain Cook Is, Vanuatu, Samoa, Tonga and Fiji….
I mean, if Cook Islands is reaching a ceiling at this level, which is that they cant top EAP region, which is the weakest region, while qualifying for WCL Div 5, then perhaps a development model for the tiny individual countries in which we expect them to become test teams is not a viable option.
cook islands could even consider joining new zealand as all cook islands citizens are already NZ citizens. a population of 15000 is too small to create a team which can compete even at associate level.
maybe a joint south pacific team(modelled on west indies) including png, fiji, cook islands, samoa, tonga, vanuatu, new caledonia and other islands in the region can be considered. they will have about a 7-8 million population base and can even get up to odi standard
Well, there should only be a Polynesian/South Pacific team if the various associations actually want it. However, as there have been periodic suggestions and abortive attempts at political federation in the Pacific then it isn’t too far fetched. And when one considers that Samoa, Fiji and Tonga have created a joint Pacific Islanders team for Rugby Union tours (not the Rugby World Cup…but who knows) then it doesn’t seem all that impractical. From what I’ve seen on the net, the joint Pacific Islanders team was basically formed as a result of the move from amateurism to professionalism in rugby union, a move that has made life more difficult for Samoa, Tonga and Fiji individually…so for overseas tours they apparently formed some kind of Rugby Alliance and fielded a joint team in order to save money and hopefully make money.
A note on the terms though: “Polynesian” isn’t strictly accurate when referring to all of the Pacific Islands (or Oceania). There are 3 groups of islands in the Pacific: Micronesia (in the northern Pacific including Kiribati, Federated States of Micronesia, Guam, Northern Marianas, Palau, Marshall Islands and Nauru), Melanesia (southwest Pacific including all of New Guinea, Solomon Islands, New Caledonia, Vanuatu and Fiji) and Polynesia (originally it meant all of the Pacific but now it refers to French Polynesia, Cook Islands, Samoa and American Samoa, Tonga, Tuvalu, Tokelau Wallis and Futuna, Niue and Pitcairn)
If any of the Pacific associations decided (and wanted to) form a joint association, the easiest grouping would be Samoa, Tonga, Fiji and Vanuatu (along with the Solomon Islands if they play cricket). Those 4 or 5 countries all speak English (although Vanuatu also speaks French if I remember rightly) alongside their local languages and they are all independent, which makes eligibility fairly straightforward from a citizenship point-of-view. Papua New Guinea is also similar in those respects, and it has been involved in various regional initiatives. The Cook Islands might well join if invited, but as all Cook Islanders are New Zealand citizens, it might make eligibility a bit more tricky…as Amit said they could just join New Zealand (unless they get separate citizenship or some kind of separate status such as belonger status or residential status). New Caledonians are all French citizens as well and that might make for some problems. Its unlikely many mainland New Zealanders or Frenchmen (and Frenchwomen) would end up migrating to the Cook Islands and New Caledonia to play in any South Pacific Islands team, but the possibility would be there. Things might become easier if New Caledonia votes for independence in the referendum it is scheduled to hold after 2014.
PNG does not need to be included in any conglomerate team. It is big enough, and should not be sufferring from the issues that for example Samoa or Cook Islands face. In fact, PNG is bigger than NZ !
Maybe the conglomerate can be called Pacific Islands, rather than Polynesian Islands …….